Brenda
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A Juvenile Earthworm
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die-off with impressive symptoms - 2009/01/23 04:41
HELP! My worms are dying and I don't know what's wrong
I've lost several reds today. I checked on them this a.m. and they all looked fine except for one. He was hanging out near the surface of the bin, but looked okay otherwise. Within a few minutes, his head turned extremely dark red and swelled to several times the normal size.
The tail appeared to have a stricture near the end: as if a string had been tightly tied around it, making a bulbous "ball" at the tip.
I use a spritz bottle to mist the bin between waterings. If I see a worm hanging out at the top, I'll mist it to see what kind of a reaction I get. A healthy worm will quickly bury itself. These guys give a little flinch...then nothing.  Very soon after death, the worm starts to stink...Badly! 
I fished out the first guy and checked the bin...no obvious problems. A few minutes later, though: another one. I lost 3 within 30 minutes, another a few hours later, and the 5th a few hours after that.
It seems to happen pretty quickly, but it may have been developing earlier and just didn't notice it
Has anyone seen this before?
Any ideas of what it might be?
Should I sort out the worms, dump the contents and start over with new bedding?
All input will be very appreciated!
Thanks! Bren
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digger51
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A Juvenile Earthworm
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Re:die-off with impressive symptoms - 2009/01/23 07:50
It sounds like protein poisoning. Have you been feeding grain or lots of bread. I read about it somewhere on the web but I just can't remember what web site will look for it when I get some time and post later.
There could be other reasons but I would check this out.
Hope this helps out some
Digger
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James Davis
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A Juvenile Earthworm
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Re:die-off with impressive symptoms - 2009/01/23 07:59
Brenda,
protin/acid buid-up avoid getting too much feed in the bedding.add calcium carbonate [powder limestone]
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mikestuff
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A Juvenile Earthworm
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Re:die-off with impressive symptoms - 2009/01/23 10:44
If it were me, I'd get the worms that are left in your bin out of there and transplant them to a bin that has only damp shredded newspaper and no food. Let them get acclimated for a couple of days and then LIGHTLY sprinkle a very small bit of cornmeal on top of the paper. By very small I mean just a dusting. When the cornmeal is completely gone, begin to feed again.
150 worms will process a VERY small amount of food, and I'd never mix it in their bedding, but strictly top feed. This will give the worms an opportunity to get away from anything bad that happens in the bin and will give you a chance to gauge the amount of food your worms are processing.
Branson MO[size=2][/size] |
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digger51
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A Juvenile Earthworm
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Re:die-off with impressive symptoms - 2009/01/23 12:31
Mike,
I see you are in Branson. Do you raise nightcrawlers for fishing bait? I live over in Mountain View, MO
I am trying to get bait size euros for this spring.
Digger
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Brenda
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A Juvenile Earthworm
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Re:die-off with impressive symptoms - 2009/01/23 13:11
Thank you all for the advice!
I have been letting them mainly eat the leaves and bedding. I have been lightly sprinkling a mixture of cornmeal, coffee grounds and finely crushed egg shell about once/week: approx 1-2 teaspooons across the top. Since it wasn't pure cornmeal, I didn't think I had overdone it...but I guess I did. Poor things. When I bought the worms, the tubs they came in were full of cocoons, which have all hatched, and more cocoons, laid after I started the bin, are hatching now...so the number of worms has increased some.
Well, decreasing now
I'll get a new bin set up for the poor things today. Should I continue to give a little coffee grounds and eggshell (without the cornmeal), or leave them alone for a few days? Would leaves be okay for bedding, or leaves and newspaper combo? Or is sticking with strictly newspaper the best? I can't seem to keep the newspaper from balling up and turning nasty in the bin. Any idea what I'm doing wrong? Size of paper strips? too much water?
Any other advice very much appreciated!
Bren
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Brenda
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A Juvenile Earthworm
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Re:die-off with impressive symptoms-update - 2009/01/23 19:22
Thanks again for the advice...I never doubted the Protien Poisoning...it sounded right; I only doubted the amount that I had put in.
Well, I was very wrong. That's what happens when I stay up late to play with my worms 
Mike, I took your advice: set up a new bin with only newspaper and started removing the worms. I found an area where there was a pocket of cornmeal. I remember putting some in (on the top of one corner), but I didn't realize how much until today.
I fed them my cornmeal concoction and walked away. A little while later, I decided that the substrate needed more water than the spritz was providing, so I watered with a small watering can, then shifted around the bedding to make sure I got all of it evenly wet.
In the process, I must have buried the cornmeal blend I'd been using. When the water soaked it, it became a cornmeal sponge and turned into a huge wad of goo. Moer than 1/2 of the worms were chowing down on it when I found it. Must have been tasty.
The vast majority weren't in good shape. They were pale, flacid, and non-responsive to my hands being near them. I took them out and put them into a temporary holding unit: a small bucket that I'd prepared with some wet newspaper at the bottom. I got out as many as I could find (in my limited time frame), gave each a quick dip in clean water and put them into the newspaper bedding.
A couple of them didn't revive, but most perked-up pretty soon after their baths. A few are still doubtful. I had 4-5 that were D.O.A. - that smell!  I doubt I'll ever get used to it!
Sadly, there had just been a signifcant hatching of cocoons, and the contents of the container are mud. No hope of locating those little guys at this time. There were also numerous young juveniles - I found a few, but I'm sure there are many more.
I placed a thick layer of newspaper in the bottom of a container, then some of the contents from the bad bin and continued to layer it: shredded newspaper, "soil"...repeated numerous times, so each layer of bin contents is shallow with plenty of paper between.
I hope that once it dries out some there may be a few young worms survive. If nothing else, I'll let it dry completely and collect the cocoons: there are a LOT of them in there!
Question #1:
How long, generally, does the critical/recovery phase last? If I'm going to see improvements, when should it be obvious?
Question #2:
Would you use the tainted bin contents to blend in with your soil for garden plants? I was preparing to harvest it. It was mostly castings, with some leaves and leaf stems, etc...in it, but that's about it. I had about 3"-4" in the bottom of my bin: looked exactly like damp, used coffee grounds (Until I flooded it and turned it into mud)
Question #3:
When the protein poisoning occurs, is it due to the consumption of the grain; the grain being in proximity of the worms; or something else?
I'm assuming it isn't contagious from worm-to-worm, but is due to the worms diet / environment(?)
Thanks to everyone!
Bren
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mikestuff
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A Juvenile Earthworm
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Re:die-off with impressive symptoms-update - 2009/01/23 20:06
Hi Brenda,
Personally, I don't think that worms NEED coffee grounds or crushed egg shells to thrive. It was always difficult for me to tell the coffee grounds from the castings, so I couldn't really tell whethere they were eating them or not.
Worms are MUCH easier to kill with overfeeding than they are to starve and your worms could do well in your new bin for two or more weeks with no food added whatsoever.
I'm not sure how big the original bin was, but I'm a firm believer in giving worms plenty of room both to grow and to avoid the potentially toxic areas of the bin if there is a problem.
I don't think that including leaves would be a problem, but if this is an inside bin, when you add leaves,you also add anything on the leaves to the bin, some of which you may not want.
My first experience with redworms was when I was a child fishing on the river and I would find them on the bank of the river in piles of leaves. These were the happiest, healthiest worms I've ever seen and they got that way with absolutely no human intervention. If you put your worms in a decent environment and then treat them to a generous portion of neglect,they will do quite well.
Branson MO[size=2][/size] |
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mikestuff
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A Juvenile Earthworm
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Re:die-off with impressive symptoms - 2009/01/23 20:13
Hi Digger51,
I just raise EF mostly for the vermicompost and to dispose of kitchen waste. I tried Euros,but didn't have much success actually growing them. They didn't do badly,but they really never reached the size to be valuable for fishing worms. I obviously didn't have the right formula.
When I got my first batch from Bob Ingram, they were a nice size for fishing,but I never achieved much success with them and wasn't able to get the size he got.
Mike
Branson MO[size=2][/size] |
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wellsworms
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A Protected Species Earthworm
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Re:die-off with impressive symptoms-update - 2009/01/24 07:32
And you wonder why your worms neve grow to their full potiential sizemikestuff wrote:
Hi Brenda,
Personally, I don't think that worms NEED coffee grounds or crushed egg shells to thrive. It was always difficult for me to tell the coffee grounds from the castings, so I couldn't really tell whethere they were eating them or not.
Worms are MUCH easier to kill with overfeeding than they are to starve and your worms could do well in your new bin for two or more weeks with no food added whatsoever.
I'm not sure how big the original bin was, but I'm a firm believer in giving worms plenty of room both to grow and to avoid the potentially toxic areas of the bin if there is a problem.
I don't think that including leaves would be a problem, but if this is an inside bin, when you add leaves,you also add anything on the leaves to the bin, some of which you may not want.
My first experience with redworms was when I was a child fishing on the river and I would find them on the bank of the river in piles of leaves. These were the happiest, healthiest worms I've ever seen and they got that way with absolutely no human intervention. If you put your worms in a decent environment and then treat them to a generous portion of neglect,they will do quite well.
FEED IT TO THE WORMS
WELLS,vermont
jerry walker 2008 |
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digger51
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A Juvenile Earthworm
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Re:die-off with impressive symptoms-update - 2009/01/24 08:04
Brenda,
As far as recovery time I have no idea on that I have never had it happen to me.
As far as coffee grounds and egg shells go my EF's
get all that. My euros get manure and a fating mix that I got off of Bob's web site.
After 2 years of trying different things I am starting to get larger worms. I do what most would say is over feeding. Nothing but manure and small amounts of the grain mix. Hey it works for Burger King why shouldn't it work for me?
I think mainly what is working is I am at the point that the newbie has worn off and I leave them alone to do what they do best. EAT 24/7. IT took awhile to get there but I think it is paying off.
Digger
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Brenda
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A Juvenile Earthworm
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Re:die-off with impressive symptoms-update - 2009/01/24 14:28
Thanks again for the advice...I never doubted the Protien Poisoning...it sounded right; I only doubted the amount that I had put in.
Well, I was very wrong. That's what happens when I stay up late to play with my worms
Mike, I took your advice: set up a new bin with only newspaper and started removing the worms. I found an area where there was a pocket of cornmeal. I remember putting some in (on the top of one corner), but I didn't realize how much until today.
I fed them my cornmeal concoction and walked away. A little while later, I decided that the substrate needed more water than the spritz was providing, so I watered with a small watering can, then shifted around the bedding to make sure I got all of it evenly wet.
In the process, I must have buried the cornmeal blend I'd been using. When the water soaked it, it became a cornmeal sponge and turned into a huge wad of goo. Moer than 1/2 of the worms were chowing down on it when I found it. Must have been tasty.
The vast majority weren't in good shape. They were pale, flacid, and non-responsive to my hands being near them. I took them out and put them into a temporary holding unit: a small bucket that I'd prepared with some wet newspaper at the bottom. I got out as many as I could find (in my limited time frame), gave each a quick dip in clean water and put them into the newspaper bedding.
A couple of them didn't revive, but most perked-up pretty soon after their baths. A few are still doubtful. I had 4-5 that were D.O.A. - that smell! I doubt I'll ever get used to it!
Sadly, there had just been a signifcant hatching of cocoons, and the contents of the container are mud. No hope of locating those little guys at this time. There were also numerous young juveniles - I found a few, but I'm sure there are many more.
I placed a thick layer of newspaper in the bottom of a container, then some of the contents from the bad bin and continued to layer it: shredded newspaper, "soil"...repeated numerous times, so each layer of bin contents is shallow with plenty of paper between.
I hope that once it dries out some there may be a few young worms survive. If nothing else, I'll let it dry completely and collect the cocoons: there are a LOT of them in there!
Question #1:
How long, generally, does the critical/recovery phase last? If I'm going to see improvements, when should it be obvious?
Question #2:
Would you use the tainted bin contents to blend in with your soil for garden plants? I was preparing to harvest it. It was mostly castings, with some leaves and leaf stems, etc...in it, but that's about it. I had about 3"-4" in the bottom of my bin: looked exactly like damp, used coffee grounds (Until I flooded it and turned it into mud)
Question #3:
When the protein poisoning occurs, is it due to the consumption of the grain; the grain being in proximity of the worms; or something else?
I'm assuming it isn't contagious from worm-to-worm, but is due to the worms diet / environment(?)
Thanks to everyone!
Bren
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Brenda
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A Juvenile Earthworm
| Posts: 36 | |
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ignore the last post - duplicate - 2009/01/24 14:34
Sorry -
I hit my refresh button this a.m. and the last message posted again.
Oops.
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mikestuff
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A Juvenile Earthworm
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Re:die-off with impressive symptoms-update - 2009/01/25 12:52
Jerry,
I didn't intend my post to be antagonistic and was surprised to see the supersized red text. I'm just not interested in growing state fair worms and prefer to allow them to do their thing. Under these circumstances they do quite well, but may be undereachievers, which suits me fine.
They work diligently for me through all the seasons and reward me with castings to feed my tomato plants and various bedding plants. I can also get rid of organic waste without sending it to the landfill.
Branson MO[size=2][/size] |
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Brenda
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A Juvenile Earthworm
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Re:die-off with impressive symptoms - Update #2 - 2009/01/25 16:34
After removing the breeders from the tainted bin, I divided the remaining substrate between two containers and layered it with large quantities of newspaper between small quantities of bin contents.
I was changing out the wet newspaper yesterday to see if it was dry enough to remove the cocoons. I was delighted to see dozens of little hatchlings and young adolescents: not only alive but thriving! 
I hope that adding so much newspaper diluted the toxins from the poisonous substrate allowed it to balance out to the point that these hatchlings and the remaining cocoons will survive. I will keep the two boxes going as they are, without adding the breeders back in.
I feel hopeful that these bins will turn around and take off.
If anyone has suggestions or comments, please pass them on!
btw...another big thank you for all of the advice! Without your taking the time to reply and offer your tips, I'd have lost all of them.
Bren 
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digger51
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A Juvenile Earthworm
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Re:die-off with impressive symptoms - Update #2 - 2009/01/25 18:16
Hey Bren,
I am sure that I speak for everyone here when I say that is what this site is all about. No body knows it all and we all need some help and have questions from time to time.
The only thing worse than a dead worm is a bunch of dead worms.
Digger
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wellsworms
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A Protected Species Earthworm
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Re:die-off with impressive symptoms-update - 2009/01/26 17:00
 mike the super size was not ment as an expurlative just wanted it to stand out what got me about your statement was it seemed to be contray to what everyone has been preaching for years lot of food, moisture and TLCno offence was intended as for the egg shells and coffee grounds if you leave the grounds on the surface along with the filter paper you will see the worms in a day or two. i grind my egg shells in the blender with a little water to aid in grinding ,discard the water before placing in the bin.
Post edited by: wellsworms, at: 2009/01/26 17:07
FEED IT TO THE WORMS
WELLS,vermont
jerry walker 2008 |
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