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Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2007/12/27 20:30I run / own a mid size organic compost operation for the last 10 years.
I have thought about starting some worm composting. I would not be looking at this off the part of selling the worms but to sell the vermicompost.
I?m thinking of using one of my old compost production barns. The barn has a concrete floor and has block walls. The floor of the barn is 4? below grad. It stays 50 to 80* all year round.
I?m thinking about starting small with a few bins and 5 pounds of worms so I can get a feel of what I?m doing. After 6 to 12 months I was thinking of starting a pile on the floor about 3? wide by 3? high 10? long. I could add new bedding and food to only one side. This would make it easer when it came to harvesting the vermicompost off the back with out having to disturb the rest of the bed.
I have done a lot of reading but I still don?t know a thing till I get my hands dirty.
Is my plan to far out of the box? What type of worm should I try?
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wellsworms
User A Protected Species Earthworm
Posts: 511
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2007/12/28 08:15 Your idea of using an existing cement floor is just what I had in mind only I don't have one. I like the idea of a windrow system. You feed one end and harvest from the other. Makes sense to me. As for the type of worm, if you if you're not going to use a worms for fish bait I would suggest using EF?S mine have just taken over and they eat everything I give them they are smalland breed like crazy. However, if you're going to use them for fish bait also I would suggest using the European nightcrawler, otherwise known as enc. Best of luck in your new endeavor. Jerry-Wellsworms. Wells, Vermont PS start now not later
Post edited by: wellsworms, at: 2007/12/28 08:16FEED IT TO THE WORMS WELLS,vermont jerry walker 2008
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squirminwormfarm
User A Protected Species Earthworm
Posts: 103
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2007/12/29 13:21I agree with Jerry. The windrows should work well, and you are right on with redworms. Good breaders, great castings. Let us know when you get your worms...Dave Wallace Squirmin' Worm Farm Plymouth, WI www.squirminwormfarm.com
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organicfarmer
User A Hatchling Earthworm
Posts: 19
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2007/12/30 00:43My current plan is to order 5 pounds of red worms on 01/02/08.
Right now I have; I have 4 wooden bins that are 4? by 4? by 2? made plywood and 2 by 4?s.
My bedding mix of 1/6 shredded news paper, 1/6 chopped leaves, 1/3 rabbet droppings with there bedding, and 1/6 grass clippings, and 1/6 cow dung. I tossed 1 hand full of lime in each box. There is about 6? of the mix in each box. The box is moist and I have been mixing every other day and will continue till I get the worms. I plan on feeding the boxes rabbit bedding, aged cow dung, and old veggies. I?m planning about 1.25 pounds of worms per a bin. I do plan on using one of the boxes for some experiments with some wood chips (I have read a lot of mixed info about wood chips and saw dust).
I don?t know where I?m going to order form yet but need to decide soon. I need to find a few old lights
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stevedill
User A Fertile Cocoon
Posts: 9
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2007/12/31 01:13HI THERE I THINK YUO PUTTING 1.5 LBS IN EACH BIN IS TO BIG AREA 4FTX4FT 16 SQUARE FEET. RULE IS 1000 RED WORMS IS 1LB I HAVE 2X 4 AND I PUT IN 10LBS OF REDS AND 5LBS OF EUROPEAN. HOPE THIS HELPS. STEVE
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squirminwormfarm
User A Protected Species Earthworm
Posts: 103
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2007/12/31 14:47Becareful with the grass clippings... They can heat up pretty quickly. Make sure that they are done heating before you add the worms. And I would also try adding another 2-3 inches of bedding to each bin. The redworms will probably stay in the top 4" or so. But you want to have enough room for them to live in comfortably while you harvest the castings. As far as the worms per bin I think you will be fine. Keep 'em fat and happy and they breed like redworms do. Your bins will be full soon enough.Dave Wallace Squirmin' Worm Farm Plymouth, WI www.squirminwormfarm.com
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markbrauer
User A Protected Species Earthworm
Posts: 248
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2007/12/31 19:32stevedill wrote: HI THERE I THINK YUO PUTTING 1.5 LBS IN EACH BIN IS TO BIG AREA 4FTX4FT 16 SQUARE FEET. RULE IS 1000 RED WORMS IS 1LB I HAVE 2X 4 AND I PUT IN 10LBS OF REDS AND 5LBS OF EUROPEAN. HOPE THIS HELPS. STEVE
I've also read that putting worms in a big bin leads to slower reproduction. The worms are more spread out and don't find each other as much to do the nasty. Not sure how true it is, but makes sense. Instead of splitting them up, I would put them all in one bin, let them do their thing and when you have a bunch more a few months later, split it in half and start your second, then a few more later split the two again. More cost effective, or you can just buy more worms. I would even consider taking one of the bins and putting a divider in it at first. may help with harvesting also.
If you're new to worming then I would do the 5lbs in one worm bin and use your first few months as a hands on, small scale learning experience. Then if they make it long enough to divide up, you're doing good and game on. I know I killed my first batch!
Another suggestion is do one bin 5lbs red. Another bin 5lbs Euro's. See what works better in your part of the country, and food sources. Depending on your market, diversity may be beneficial (if you decide to sell for bait). Hope this helps!-:Mark:- MEInc.us Hampton, VA
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organicfarmer
User A Hatchling Earthworm
Posts: 19
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2007/12/31 23:34Mark you have me thinking. I might end up trying both types of worms. Now that I think about it 5 pounds in one bin would still let them spread out pretty far, might be too much.
I would be using these beds more for getting the herd numbers up so I could start my windrows. The grass clippings are broken down pretty fare and I?m not worried about them. I?m not really thinking of harvesting the out of the boxes until I get to the point of starting the windows.
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markbrauer
User A Protected Species Earthworm
Posts: 248
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2008/01/01 10:09I ran across this video on You Tube a little bit ago. Take a look and it might give you some ideas.
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organicfarmer
User A Hatchling Earthworm
Posts: 19
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2008/01/01 16:39That was a great video. I had seen it once before but didn?t pay to much mind to it.
250 worms in a 5 gallon bucket that was only part way full; I?m thinking it was at about 3 to 4 gallons full. I do like his harvester. He dose have a nice looking farm and a nice setup. I?m not planning on doing that much labor with harvesting. I?m more looking to add some castings to some batches of compost that I send out to raise the quality for the companies that want it.
I have been unrealistic about the amount of worms I will need to start and I know this thanks to you?ll. I will need at the least 10 pounds of worms for a 4? by 4? bin that I dived in half; this would still be on the shy side of most people?s thoughts of starting with a decent amount.
I?m thinking with a good size windrow system I will be able to have pretty clean castings at the back side and will be able to screen them pretty easily. What doesn?t screen I would feed back in on the other side.
I do understand that I would need around what I would guess 200 to 300 pounds of worms for a decent size windrow that would be healthy and produce a decent amount of castings.
I still have a lot to learn and a lot of hands on to get this to work.
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markbrauer
User A Protected Species Earthworm
Posts: 248
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2008/01/01 16:47You gotta start some where right. Even if you get 5lbs now, at least its a start. You're not doing it now, and its not holding up business, so the sooner you start the sooner you'll have more worms.
Check out the biopod.com. If you use it before your worms seems like they'd process the food faster. Kind of a low cost start up. Do more with less...more and quicker worm castings with less worms, since the food would be broken down to nice worm bite size food.-:Mark:- MEInc.us Hampton, VA
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organicfarmer
User A Hatchling Earthworm
Posts: 19
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2008/01/01 21:42www.biopod.com was not a good site.
I?m ordered 10 pounds of red worms, 5 pounds of European Night crawlers. I should get them on the 9th or 10th, and a pound of worm feed (tossed in for ?free?). With shipping it was $280.
I put a divider in 2 of the boxes and moved some of the bedding mix around so there?s 10? of bedding in the 2 boxes.
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markbrauer
User A Protected Species Earthworm
Posts: 248
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2008/01/01 21:51Yeah, thats my bad. The site is www.thebiopod.com. glad to hear you got it started. Man, I wish I had some space to get a bigger setup! I'm in a townhouse, not so much space in the backyard. Good luck with the herd! Keep us posted!
Post edited by: markbrauer, at: 2008/01/01 21:52-:Mark:- MEInc.us Hampton, VA
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organicfarmer
User A Hatchling Earthworm
Posts: 19
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2008/01/01 23:41Once my compost trash is mixed and chopped it is an all inside production so the fly thing is out of question.
I don?t like flies of any kind. I do pretty good about not having any fly?s in my compost barns. I do have 3 bug lights in every working barn.
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markbrauer
User A Protected Species Earthworm
Posts: 248
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2008/01/02 14:25Don't mess with a good thing then!
Question. Do you use any heat for your compost? For weed seeds and what not? Just wondering, never really got into that much.-:Mark:- MEInc.us Hampton, VA
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wtman
User A Juvenile Earthworm
Posts: 33
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2008/01/02 14:35Also remember, Most of the worms you get are not going to be adult breeders. It will be a couple of months before you start seeing egg capsules. I would put all 10 pounds in one bin as mentioned earlier and let them mature and lay lots of cocoons. Then divide the worms and proceed from there. It's taken me a year and a half to get almost 1 million worms. I started with 8 lbs and then ordered another 25 lbs throughout the months. I have a real good start now and they are really producing well now with both vc and cocoons. Good luck and keep us up to date on the progress.
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organicfarmer
User A Hatchling Earthworm
Posts: 19
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2008/01/02 16:50I?m planning on adding the 10 pounds of red in the one and the 5 pounds of earth worms in another. I did split both of the in 1/2.
Do we use heat in our compost? No if there mixed right they create there own heat. If you don?t take care of your piles they can catch fire on there own. But it all comes down to daily temps to keep the piles in the right temp range and turning them at the right times. Weed seeds will die on the heat that the piles make on there own if you let them. Right now I have about 96 windrows that are 6? x 6? by 20?. There all in 3 buildings so I can control there environment year round. The windrows take about 4 to 5 weeks to fully decompose. Then they get siffted piled and loaded on to semis. I could write a 10 page paper on how we do it but this is the wrong forum.
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markbrauer
User A Protected Species Earthworm
Posts: 248
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2008/01/02 18:55Thanks for the info, much appreciated.-:Mark:- MEInc.us Hampton, VA
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organicfarmer
User A Hatchling Earthworm
Posts: 19
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2008/01/02 20:26Mark; I went back I did notice that it can look as if I shut the door on letting out any info. I did not mean it to sound that way. If you or anyone wants more info we can set something up on. Email just let me know.
Depending on what types of seed most will die off before 180* but you don?t want your piles to get above 220* because you will kill off to much of the bacteria. Depending on where you look this up will depend on what numbers you will get for killing of seeds and the killing of the bacteria. I?m sure that I don?t kill every seed on every batch. There is a big difference between the internal and the external temp. We vent out your buildings every morning. If the buildings get above 130* windows will open to vent out some heat. If it gets above 140 fans kick in to help force out the heat. We have monitors to watch the levels off Co2 and other gasses. Before entering the buildings you must turn the fans on and check the gas monitors, most of the time it will be about an hour (in the summer) before the temps come down to where you would want to enter. There have only been a few times that we have had a problem with the gasses.
90% of the in coming waste that we use is trucked for free. It is cheaper to give it to us then it is to pay the land fill prices or recycling. Most weeks we get about 10 semi loads of waste. We shred paper, cardboard, unusable veggies, yard waste, wood chips, saw dust, and cow pies; theses are our main incoming products. Depending on the time of year we do get loads of rotten hay, xmas trees, huge amounts of landscaping waste and so on.
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markbrauer
User A Protected Species Earthworm
Posts: 248
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2008/01/03 13:55Oh not a probelm. I just had a quick question and you answered it. But thanks for the more indepth look.
I don't have much experiece with big compost workings, but wonder. When you get your worms started and get to doing a bit of it that way, if you'll ever decide it is a better way or not, and convert the whole process over to worms. I'm sure all of your methods and machines aren't worm friendly, so it would have to be a lot better to make a complete switch, but I wonder if the worms make a better and/or quicker end product to justify a switch over. Just thinking out loud!
I know it wouldn't be months or a year or two down the road to get your worms up and going, but would like to hear about your results in the future. Have a good one!-:Mark:- MEInc.us Hampton, VA
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organicfarmer
User A Hatchling Earthworm
Posts: 19
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2008/01/03 21:13I have one totally empty building and one with my soon to be worm farm and has some storage in it. These were built before I believed in conveyers and use dump trucks to move everything. I would use both of theses for worms if it all works out good but I don?t think that I would expand for more production of worm castings.
I?m thinking of this as a way to add 2 products to my list. One would be compost and worm casting mix and the other would be an ?organic additive that spreads like fertilizer?; I would start with the home owner side of the fence and depending on how it goes (and the bottom line) would try to push it to a few organic farms. This would be 3 to 5 years down the road.
I have had a few talks about this to my organic broker and he thinks it?s worth a try but don?t try to over produce till I produce the market that I want it to be in my location. This is right about every new product that?s out there. At least there is already a university that?s paying the money for me to use the results. For the last 8 years I have been producing organic alfalfa, organic corn silage, and organic compost so I know a little of what I?m jumping into.
There have been ongoing studies that say adding the castings for 5 to 10 years will lower the amount of fertilizer needed. If the castings prove to raise the saturation point of the soil then I think it will be a mater of time before it will catch on. I know farmers that are paying $48 an acre to put down a product that is 99.9% water that clams to do the same thing that they clam takes 10 to 20 years to see results.
This could be a new market angle in a few years coming but it would take a few dozen producers spread out to make this work. Yes there are some soils that would benefit more then others.
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Mrs.M
User A Juvenile Earthworm
Posts: 54
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2008/01/04 08:11I'm working on developing a relationship with the owner of my local farmer's market. He's an organic farmer who uses his own worm castings on all his vege's. He's interested in what I'm doing, though he's not going into the worm biz himself. He said I'll have no competition at this market. Farmer's markets seem perfect to me because not only do they provide an outlet to sell your product, but they also put you in contact with all these local farmers. He says making fresh tea from his castings is something he has trouble finding time getting around to, so I know if it's a hassle for him it's probably a hassle for other farmers. Wouldn't they rather just buy it at a reasonable but fair cost?
I think the positioning may be a little early, but if so, not much. People are tired of consuming chemicals and farmers know it. I think their ears are primed, they just need someone to bring the message of a viable alternative and with a good product to offer when they are converted.
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squirminwormfarm
User A Protected Species Earthworm
Posts: 103
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2008/01/04 14:22organicfarmer,
I am currently applying for a compost facility permit and am trying to get the compost side of our business going. We will be composting yard waste, landscape waste, woodchips, and MSW. Do you have any suggestions for somebody just getting into this side of the business. I read your post about your buildings and it sounds like you've been at this for a while. We will have outdoor static aerated piles and windrows when we get bigger. Any suggestions for a new kid on your block?
If you want to e mail me instead of posting it here just let me know.
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organicfarmer
User A Hatchling Earthworm
Posts: 19
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2008/01/05 00:10I?m at year 15 as a farmer, 12 years of making compost, and 7 years growing organic crops. Yes I have been working with compost for a few years.
I don?t like out door piles because you can?t control the weather witch means you can?t control the compost with out trapping the piles parts of the year.
The biggest thing that has saved us time ($$$$$) is getting the right equipment. When you do need to buy something, buy something that?s the right size for your operation. Yes a farm tractor with a front bucket will move dirt but a front end loader will move the same dirt in 1/2 the time; this comes down to 1/2 the labor, 2/3 of the fuel, and 1/3 the wear in tear. You can save the cash today and spend it for the life of it or spend it now and pay less latter. This is something that?s hard to see but I can show it to you on paper.
The one thing that you will need to do is sell yourself to your community. I don?t know what type of area you live but I won a lot of people over by opening my doors to them. We are a drop off site for yard waste by anyone in the town or county. The town and county save money by hauling the stuff to me, but they could pay by the ton into the dump in the county dump.
If you have to pay for any of your organic mater then you?re paying too much. Picking up stuff is a cost. Wood takes to long to decompose and they leave you the job to chip it all before you can use it. This can cost big money to run a chipper with 2 people. If you look at the cost of wear and tear and gas it the same with one worker or 2. With one worker the chipper sits to much with out working. With 3 people they get in each others way.
Find out what the cost is for disposal of trash by the ton for all your sounding areas. I ended up talking to 2 grocery stores Distributor Company?s that was paying by the ton for to dispose of uneatable veggies. After selling my self to them and showed them how it would be cheaper for them to ship it to me then pay for the garbage company to haul it off. After about 8 hours of paper work spread out over a few weeks I ended up with it all. I have done this with a few other companies.
With taking in other?s trash you need to protect your self so you don?t get what you think is trash. I did have a company that was good about sending me unusable vegetables. For months there was little trash. One day I got a full trailer full of trash; I?m talking about garbage bags full plastic. They were pissed when I called the cops had them charged with illegal dumping, trespassing, had them pay for the cleanup, and pay for the down time that there trash was there and the down time for that part of my operation. If you do get into something like this get a contract written up to protect you.
If you have to pay for any of your organic mater then you?re paying too much. Picking up stuff is a cost. Wood takes to long to decompose and they leave you the job to chip it all before you can use it. This can cost big money to run a chipper with 2 people. If you look at the cost of wear and tear and gas it the same with one worker or 2. With one worker the chipper sits to much with out working. With 3 people they get in each others way.
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squirminwormfarm
User A Protected Species Earthworm
Posts: 103
Re:Thoughts on vermicompost operation - 2008/01/05 10:41Thanks for the info! I am from Southeast Wisconsin. Some of it sounded like my trains thought. Others parts gave me some good insight. I appreciate it. Let us know when you get your worms... Good luck.
Post edited by: squirminwormfarm, at: 2008/01/05 10:42Dave Wallace Squirmin' Worm Farm Plymouth, WI www.squirminwormfarm.com
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Your idea of using an existing cement floor is just what I had in mind only I don't have one.
