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testing soil meters - 2008/08/28 14:17Just thought I would pass on my experience with the purchase of a set of soil testers that I purchased recently from vermico. http://www.vermico.com/bins_&_tools.htm
I attempted to test these in various solutions, which turned out not to be accurate. Timnbama's thread explains proper use of these. Plus the manufacturer's website has much more detailed instructions than what's on the package.
Larry
Post edited by: Larry C, at: 2008/09/02 22:43
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wellsworms
User A Protected Species Earthworm
Posts: 624
Re:Don't buy these tools- inaccurate - 2008/08/29 09:44 taste test?FEED IT TO THE WORMS WELLS,vermont jerry walker 2008
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timnbama
User A Protected Species Earthworm
Posts: 167
Re:Don't buy these tools- inaccurate - 2008/08/29 09:51I have one of the pH and moisture meters and just checked them. The first thing that you need to do is throw that scrubbing pad away that comes with the pH meter and get one of those green 3M pot scrubbers to get the oxide off the test probe. Second thing is that they don't include a scrubber with the moisture meter, Why not? If that aluminum probe on the pH meter will corrode why won't the aluminum probe on the moisture meter corrode. Scrub it as well. Don't use the meters in liquid solutions, I think that the instructions warn against that. When you test be sure that the soil is moist and firm it around the test probe then move the test probe up and down 3 or 4 times. I know that the instruction leaflet says twist but up and down works better for me. I took a sample of dirt out of the yard and it was moist, pH read just below 7. I then started adding vinegar to the sample and the meter went towards acid. The more vinegar I added the further it went until I pegged it out. Then I started stirring in lime and winemaking chalk and took the meter back the other way to alkaline. The idiot sheet for the pH meter suggests using distilled water to wet the soil sample. I use well water in my worm bins so why would I want to use distilled water on the sample? You could have got a dud but I suspect that your probe just wasn't down to bare metal. I'm sure that my probe will wear out quicker than intended on account of me using a slighyly coarser scrubber but I'll just replace it when it does.
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Larry C
User A Mature Breeder Earthworm
Posts: 96
Re:Don't buy these tools- inaccurate - 2008/08/30 02:42timnbama,
Hmmm, that's interesting. Maybe I was too hasty in thinking they weren't working. I thought I had looked for directions on the package, but didn't remember seeing much at all. I did wonder what the pad was in there for. Wish I still had them to test out like you did.
Larry
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timnbama
User A Protected Species Earthworm
Posts: 167
Re:Don't buy these tools- inaccurate - 2008/08/30 07:02You can go to their web site (Luster Leaf Products) and download a pdf format manual for the products. On the puter screen it's much easier to see and read. There are several other models out there in the $200 - $500 range, way above my budget. I think that if you don't over feed your worms with a lot of heavily salted food and water your beds regularly then you'll flush the salt out anyway. Other than that I guess you could taste test the bed, just kidding. I know that when making wines you can use iodine to test for the presence of starch in the must that would cause a haze in the wine. If I remember or run across something that would indicate the presence of salt with a color change I'll let you know. Seems like in the back of my mind I remember something that we learned in school with one of those wacky experiments that will change color when it reacts with salt, just don't remember what it is. That's a scary thought, I must be getting older.
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timnbama
User A Protected Species Earthworm
Posts: 167
Re:Don't buy these tools- inaccurate - 2008/08/30 07:51Larry, I found this on the web which is what we used to do in school. It was a test to test for iodine in the salt. http://jchemed.chem.wise.edu/HS/Journal/Issues/2007/OctACS/abs1616A.html/ There's a site called sciencebuddies that also has this test on it. I thought you might like to look at it. I don't know how adaptable this would be to what you're wanting to test for in your beds but after doing a little research on salt I wasn't aware that it's used in paper making. This has got me wondering to just how much salt we are exposing the worms to by using paper and other substances as bedding. I always soak the paper in water then pour the water out away from the worm beds just to play it a little safer.
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Larry C
User A Mature Breeder Earthworm
Posts: 96
Re:Don't buy these tools- inaccurate - 2008/08/31 00:56Timnbama,
Thanks for all the information. I'm also a winemaker and I had paid $50 for a simple PH meter. (which I don't really want to also use in my worm bins ) I might just have to re-buy some of the tools and test them the proper way.
Also, if you're looking for a good winemaking forum, try out http://www.winepress.us/ My screen name there is climber.
Larry
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WFike
User A Protected Species Earthworm
Posts: 227
Re:Don't buy these tools- inaccurate - 2008/08/31 11:23I wonder if there is a forum for vermico to pass on their experience with a set of soil testers purchased recently from them by you! There are very few products out there that are idiotproof!
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Larry C
User A Mature Breeder Earthworm
Posts: 96
Re:Don't buy these tools- inaccurate - 2008/09/02 02:08Maybe they aren't any smarter than me either. I explained to them exactly how I tested these and Peter Bogdonav just apologized and said he would issue a refund.
Thanks Timnbama for your helpful information on the proper way to use them. Unlike WFike, who just calls me an idiot.
If everyone else has had good luck with these tools, and I'm in the minority, then maybe a moderator should remove this thread.
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WFike
User A Protected Species Earthworm
Posts: 227
Re:Don't buy these tools- inaccurate - 2008/09/02 18:17I didn't say you were an idiot. Mabye just a little common since deprived or something. Why don't you just delete your post yourself? They gave you the refund because they thought it would be easier than teaching you how to use them. Sounds like a company trying to do the right thing and make everybody happy.
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timnbama
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Posts: 167
Re:Don't buy these tools- inaccurate - 2008/09/02 18:23Thanks Larry. Now I'll share something with you and the other readers, HOW to test for the presence of salt. From the research that I've read up on as little as 3/10% of salt can interfere with reproduction even though the worms may live. I haven't tested this in an all non-soil bedding type so I guess that you might have to make a little adaptation. Since soil pH can act as a buffer to a lot of other things the first thing that you need to do is check the soil pH with a meter, litmus paper or whatever and record it. When you do the salt test recheck the pH and if necessary adjust either up or down to return to that level. For this you will need an elecltrical ohm or multimeter, a cup or glass that will hold the soil sample in around a 3-4" circle and it should give you a soil depth of at least 4". Then you need 2 pieces of bare stiff (10 or 12 ga.) shiny copper wire. You put the soil into the cup pack it down pretty good. Then insert the 2 pcs. of wire standing straight up and about 1" apart with 1" sticking up out of the soil. Touch the 2 ohmmeter leads after you have zeroed the scale on X1K and read the scale. Later on as you periodically check your bed try to appoximate the same moisture content as this fist sample. I have run several different tests with this and here's about the average results. With the meter set on X1K resistance scale a sample of my bedding material reads 200, with a weighed 3/10% salt added and stirred in then retested the meter reads 22 and with a weighed 1% salt stirred in the meter reads 10. A lot of people have a multimeter already from their work or hobbies. They are not that expensive at Radio Shack or Sears. Salt is a good conductor, the salt meters that you can buy is really nothing other than a cheap preset ohmmeter. If anyone has one of these meters and want to try it by checking a soil sample and then gradually adding salt and rechecking it post your readings please. I think that if you don't use soil the main issue might be getting a good ground on the copper wire. In that case you might try bending a short 90 degree bend on the wire and placing them in the bottom of the cup and packing the bedding in around the wires. I haven't tried it on an all paper material yet but I will after while and then I'll post the results to that.
Post edited by: timnbama, at: 2008/09/02 19:11
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timnbama
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Posts: 167
Re:Don't buy these tools- inaccurate - 2008/09/02 19:34OK, here's the results of testing soaked, hand wrung newspaper. With the ohmmeter set to X1K it read 20, with the addition of salt it read 10. I had to drive the coper wires into the ball of paper. After adding the salt I kneaded the ball of paper like you would bread dough to be sure the salt was mixed in. Not being a scientist I'm not 101% sure if you could add another ingredient to your bedding that would produce a skewed result but knowing what I use in my beds I am confident in using this method to detect the presence of salt in my beds. If anyone knows anything that would prove me wrong in this please, let me know. From what all I've tested with other ingredients being added to the bedding soil I haven't found anything that I would be normally adding to my beds to come up with a similar reading. Someone else who has a meter give it a try and post your readings here. Take a reading before you add any salt then after, try adding cornmeal, sugar, something and see what you come up with.
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WFike
User A Protected Species Earthworm
Posts: 227
Re:Don't buy these tools- inaccurate - 2008/09/02 21:17Salt water is much more conductive than regular water so it will read less resistance on an ohm meter but to measure the salinity of a bed you will have to check the water sample and then take a bedding sample and place it in water to check it. You want get a good reading in the bedding unless it was compressed and wet like you did it. I can't think of anything take will mess with the reading other than heavy metal contamination.
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jlance
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Re:Don't buy these tools- inaccurate - 2008/09/02 21:52great research job i'l be tring the test sound s interestingheal the earth with worm farming. John Lance Indain Valley,virginia
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timnbama
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Re:Don't buy these tools- inaccurate - 2008/09/02 22:21The soil and bedding samples haven't been wet, only slightly damp.
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lkittle
User A Juvenile Earthworm
Posts: 51
Re:Don't buy these tools- inaccurate - 2008/09/03 08:03Hi All; The meters you all are discussing in reality are amp meters they are reading the external current set up by salts,acids and two dissimilar metals. Like a battery. The probes make up the battery posts and the bedding and Moisture the electrolite median. The same is true for the ph tester. In the case of the ph tester the direction of current flow gives the ph indication. Each meter needs no power source like the ohm meter because they are checking for current, and amount. If no current or zero electron movement the material is dry(moisture meter) or no salt(salt meter) neutral Ph 7 the ph meters. The safe zone is in the center. The types of metals in the probes and distance apart is a indication of what type of meter it is. The Ph and moisture checking meters have similar 1/8 in. probes and the little plastic insulator about 1/8 inch is the distance between the probes. I think lower portion aluminum, upper steel. The salts meter has two probes about 1/2 inch apart and about 4 inches long which 3 inches go in to the median being checked by the two 1/16 inch diameter probes. The probes are dissimilar metals. The surface area of the probes is the contact area. When a current flow is detected it moves to the up scale. If all electron activity stops it indicates dry condition. I have not resurched to find out the exact metals involved but am sure the info above is fairily accurate.
Post edited by: lkittle, at: 2008/09/03 09:38larry Holley,New York
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timnbama
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Posts: 167
Re:Don't buy these tools- inaccurate - 2008/09/03 09:26The meters that this first started about only have 1 probe each instead of 2 and the pH meter does require 2 AA batteries. I suspect that if you try an amp meter you'll read nothing across two wires or one inserted into a worm bed unless you pass a current thru the wires then check the current flow with an ampmeter. I think that most soil labs use a form of electrical conductivity test to determine such things as salt content. This is a measurement of resistance if my understanding of electrical principles and terminology is correct. Maybe the terms and usage have changed since I studied, worked with and taught electrical theory and electronics.
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lkittle
User A Juvenile Earthworm
Posts: 51
Re:Don't buy these tools- inaccurate - 2008/09/03 09:56Timnbama I went to fetch the meters I have and correct the post I made earlier because I thought the salt meter had two probes and it does. None of the Meters I have from Vermico have batteries. I bought the four meter tool kit from them. It has a ph model 1840, Moisture model 1820 and a soil salt meter man. by Environmental Concepts in FL. With the Reo Compost Thermometer. I have not used them much and that is why I confused the moisture and salt meters in my above post that is now corrected.
Edit: I checked for batteries and there are none required. The probes and soil with its salts/acids a battery make and the meter allows the current to flow thru the meter movement. Electronics 100 potato with a zink penny and a copper(Brass) penny a battery make. Ampmeter needle deflection indicates cuttent flow both in potato and meter movement(simple motor). We know electronics!
Post edited by: lkittle, at: 2008/09/03 10:18
Post edited by: lkittle, at: 2008/09/03 11:14larry Holley,New York
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timnbama
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Posts: 167
Re:Don't buy these tools- inaccurate - 2008/09/03 16:52I don't think that you can detect the presence of salt in your bedding or soil with an ammmeter. The test that I know that will indicate the presence of salt is done with an ohmmeter. We won't argue about this as this is not the purpose of this forum. I think that you have to have an electrical current flowing for an ammeter to function properly, I just don't know how much current an earthworm could stand without it coming up out of the bed. Seems like they sell a device that will send an eletctrical current thru the soil to drive the worms up. I must have been absent on potato day, do I need a red or white one?
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lkittle
User A Juvenile Earthworm
Posts: 51
Re:Don't buy these tools- inaccurate - 2008/09/03 19:41Hi All! Heres what the meters in question actually are.
Post edited by: lkittle, at: 2008/09/03 19:42larry Holley,New York
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WFike
User A Protected Species Earthworm
Posts: 227
Re:Don't buy these tools- inaccurate - 2008/09/03 20:38None of it really matters as if you have read this entire post you have already spent more time than you will ever need to worry about salt in a worm bed. If they have good drainage and are kept at the right moisture levels the salt will be leached out during the normal course of bed maint!
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lkittle
User A Juvenile Earthworm
Posts: 51
Re:Don't buy these tools- inaccurate - 2008/09/04 06:42Hi WFike! It does matter! Being informed with good information is never a waste of time. That is especially true in these times of limited resources. I was not well informed and I spent good money on these (Tools for worming). Now I don't even use them for my worms. It took getting some experience with worms to know that. The web and these forums are full of misleading information. Even some "scientific" theories are excepted as facts when they are only hypothsis of possibilities. So when true facts is or can be found about subject matter its worth while to post it so all can have the knowledge.larry Holley,New York
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taste test?
) I might just have to re-buy some of the tools and test them the proper way.
